Hosts: Nancy Hecht, CFP®, AIF® and Joe Bert, CFP®, AIF®
It is an Ask the Expert Saturday morning on News 96.5 WDBO and this is On The Money, brought to you by Central Florida’s oldest and largest independent firm of certified financial planning professionals, that being the Certified Financial Group in Altamonte Springs. So, this morning we have two guests, yes two, of the 12 certified financial planning pros. We have author of the Hecht Effect and A Man is Not a Plan, Nancy Hecht is back with us. Hi, Nancy.
Good morning, I’m sorry. We were talking business. Sorry, I wasn’t paying attention to the intro. What can I say?
And also with us today, Aaron Bert, <Inaudible> certified financial planning professional and they came in to give up their time to answer their questions. Well, Aaron, why do you all come in and answer questions about?
Well, we are here to discuss anything having to do with your personal financial life. On Monday through Fridays, we like to say that our clients like to pay us a fee, but on Saturday morning, we are here answering your questions for free dealing anything with your personal finances, Social Security, long-term care, stock, bonds, mutual funds, life insurance, annuities, real estate, bonds I already said. Anything else you can think of?
No, just the fact that they like to pay us a fee Monday through Friday.
Monday through Friday, that’s what they do.
Fortunately, we are here for free to answer your questions so —
Here’s the number to call right now, 844-220-0965, 844-220-0965 if you’d like to talk to Nancy Hecht or Aaron Burt. You can also text us, send us a short text from your mobile device. That texting number is 21232. 21232. And, if you so desire and you want to put your voice on the air, you can use our open mic. You’ll find the own mic on the News 96.5 app. I’ve never seen that open mic used so much as it was yesterday.
Why was it used yesterday, Kirk?
Well, we were just talking about that a little while ago. We’ll save that for another show where everybody knows what the big news of the day is and <Inaudible>. So, it’s nice to see you again, Nancy. We were talking before the program about your blog, the Hecht Effect. How’s that going by the way?
Well, it’s going pretty good.
Yeah, I just wrote my 293 blog.
Nancy’s a writer. She’s one of the best participants in that — we have a planner blog that’s on our website, and Nancy’s blog feeds into that.
I wish you were with us last week on Mother’s Day because you have a blog — do you still have that blog up?
Yes I do. The title of that one is a Mother’s Advice for Living a Healthy Financial Life (I’m the Mother). Although, as everybody knows, a mother’s advice is never out of date.
This is true, this is true.
And it’s valid at any point no matter how old your kid is.
You know, we were talking earlier about how dads always give us the financial advice and we didn’t get much response when we asked listeners about what’s your mom teach you? But Nancy, you have kids. Did your kids ever learn from you?
I have one child if you don’t count my husband. I have one child.
So, you have kids. Do they ever learn from you?
Well, my daughter has her first job. She’s a nurse, she’s an RN. She’s in her first 90 days, so I was very proud of the fact that she sat down once she found out what she was going to be earning and put together an extremely detailed budget, which included saving into her 401k and after tax savings — or I mean net earnings savings, saving into an emergency fund and for discretionary types of items. So, I guess she listened a little bit to what I’ve been saying. But, these are all good tips and as I said, they never go out of style. And the first one which got her to where she is now is education is important. It doesn’t matter at what level, whether you go for a trade school, or a bachelor’s, or you go for a post grad. If you have education, then you have some choice. The second thing is — and saving for an emergency fund, and this is something that we discuss with our clients as well as with our kids, you want to save for a rainy day. You want to have what I call that <Inaudible> kind of money. So, if you get into car accident, or your refrigerator dies, or you have to replace your air conditioner.
Or you have a medical emergency.
Anything. You’re not having to use a credit card. You can actually pay cash for the expenses and that’s really important.
Or even worse, tapping into your retirement fund.
That would be awful.
That would be even worse. So, now an emergency fund is really important and then along with that, live below your earnings. People who spend less than they — I heard another show on another station, all adults, one day last week talking about how they knew they were getting a bonus or they knew that this was coming in, so they spent the money and either it didn’t come in when they expected or they never got it. So, first of all you don’t spend what you haven’t earned and you spend below your needs. And if, given the opportunity, you never pay full price.
Well yes. I mean the worst you can end up with if you ask for a discount is what you were willing to pay to begin with. But, especially like clothing shopping. I always taught my daughter you start at the back of the store and that would be the same with going to a hardware store or something like that. All the sale items are always in the back of the store and then you work your way through to the front. Then most importantly, save for your retirement. As we know today, very few companies have pensions. The burden of saving and making sure you have a secure retirement and you have the opportunity to do absolutely everything that you want to do in the 20, or 25, or 30 years that you’ll be retired, is by saving and you save from your very first paycheck. At least 10% as far as I’m concerned. So, that’s my mom’s advice.
That’s very good. That’s basic financial advice. Obviously.
That’s sound advice.
I do want to point out too that Gary Averly is having a financial basis for life strategies versus debt <?> session today, this morning, at our office at the Certified Financial Group. That actually starts at 11:00 if I’m not mistaken.
Yes it does.
Runs from 11:00 to 1:00 and he still has space available. So, if you’re interested in going to that session, learning more about what Nancy was just talking about, maybe getting a little bit more in-depth, Gary Averly is hosting that at our office, 1111 Douglas Avenue in Altamonte Springs. Starts at 11:00. You should be able to just show up and attend the conference.
The <Inaudible> is appropriate for anyone interested in getting better understanding and feel free to bring your son, or daughter, grandson, or granddaughter.
15 or older.
Because they’re not taught in the schools that kind of stuff.
No, not at all. And that’s one of the great <Inaudible> of our educational system nowadays is they don’t teach basic financial planning or basic finances at all in school. So you go out there in life and you just don’t know what to do as far as saving or investing.
And I will say it is hard to do because I did two teach-ins, on in an elementary school in Orange County and one in a middle school in Seminole County, and it is really hard to try and teach them basic investments, savings ideas. Mostly because they just don’t want to pay attention.
I bet you David knows why. Let’s go to David in Melbourne. Hi, David.
Hey, good morning. In July I’m going to turn 70.
And I was reading in the Wall Street Journal recently it said what you should do is — so at 70 and a half you have to take your IRA distributions.
So, they said take money before December — take your first distribution and then the following — a month later you’re in a new tax year because otherwise you’re going to get killed tax wise when you take that full distribution for the year, so split it over two years. Now, can I do that legally? Start taking money at 70 rather than 70 and a half.
Well, any time after 59 and a half you can withdraw from your qualified retirement accounts without a penalty.
So, yes you legally can. The government is not going to be upset that you want to pay taxes on something sooner than you have to. The rules for 70 and a half would be — I mean, you would have to take your first required minimum distribution the beginning of 2017.
Right, January 2017.
Yeah. You do have the opportunity if you wanted to to defer it to April 1, 2018. If you do that, you would have to take two distributions in 2018, so I don’t really recommend that.
So, sometime before December 31, 2017, you have to pull out 3.65% of the December 31, 2016 balance of all of your qualified retirement accounts; IRAs, 401(k)s, 403(b)(s), whatever they may be.
But, you cannot split the required minimum distribution over two years. You’re still going to have to take that first 3.65% in 2017. You can’t put half of it 2016 and half of it in ’17.
Right, you just may potentially lower the amount that you have to withdraw in 2017. So, you can do a little bit of tax cutting if you know what your adjusted gross income is going to be this year and it wouldn’t hurt you to add a little bit more taxable income into it by taking a withdrawal this year, and then leveling out what you have to pay taxes on next year. That’s a decent tax planning strategy. So, you would want to sometime in maybe October or November do a little thumbnail 2016 tax return, see if it makes sense for you.
Okay, well that’s sound advice. That’s why I call you.
Okay, well thank you for calling and we appreciate you listening.
Thanks very much.
Have a good morning, David. He did not sound 70. I don’t know what he’s drinking, but it’s not abrasive to his throat. Alright, I like coffee and stuff like that. Good morning everybody, you can join us at 844-220-0965. Aaron Burt’s in the studio along with Nancy Hecht. This is On the Money, brought to you by the Certified Financial Group. Dave Wall is in the News Center. He’s coming up in just about three minutes from now. There’s a lot in the news this morning. I think cops need your help who did a machete attack. Not that that’s funny. It’s not surprising. There’s also a — I don’t know what this is. Is there some weather coming through? Dave will let us know here coming up in just a couple of minutes as we go to Dave Wall. Again, Nancy Hecht and Aaron Burt are with the Certified Financial Group. The number to call, 844-220-0965 or text us at 21232. Here’s a text. Is $25,000 enough money to retire comfortably at 65?
I could answer that.
If $25,000 is income, potentially.
If that’s the total nest egg of savings and there’s no pension that goes along with it —
I would say you might want to work a little bit longer than age 65.
She’s just being nice.
Well, no. I mean $25,000 is — I’m hoping they left some zeros on that text.
Yeah, maybe 250,000.
Well, what about your health, you know? You’ve got to have money for some unexpected things.
Well, we do see cases like this where clients come in and want to do financial planning, and they come, and they bring all their assets, and they bring their pensions, or whatever assets that they have, and we run through the scenarios, and we realize that people just haven’t saved for retirement. It’s one of the great problems with what’s going on right now in our country is people just have nowhere near enough money to be able to retire and they’re hoping to live off of just Social Security. Unfortunately, if you’re planning on living off of Social Security, you’re living underneath the poverty level. I mean, Social Security is not a retirement plan. It is a safety net.
It is a supplement.
It’s not meant to provide retirement for you.
So, if you’re counting on Social Security, I’m sorry, but you’re going to be very disappointed.
I’ve been reading in the news this week — when we come back from Dave Wall, I want to ask you about articles. They were saying the next president is going to face a recession. A better than 50/50 chance they were saying that the next president is going to face a recession. What should we do if we’re nearing retirement? We’ll answer that question coming up.
It’s an Ask the Expert Saturday morning on News 96.5 WDVO. We’ll get back to Dave Wall in the News Center in about four minutes with a more in-depth look at the news, traffic, and weather. Right now, this is On the Money with Aaron Burt.
And Nancy Hecht.
And that’s me.
They’re in the studio taking your phone calls about anything financial getting you through retirement; your 401k, your IRA rollovers, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, long-term health care. As a matter of fact, let’s take a call from Frank in Melbourne about assisted living. Good morning, Frank.
Good morning, how you doing Aaron?
Great. How are you?
I’m doing fine. I was talking to a co-worker the other day and he was telling me about his aging father, and how his medical and assisted living costs are really impacting his life savings.
And I was wondering is there any way to protect some of that money through annuities or other measures?
Are you asking for somebody who is already in an assisted living situation or someone who’s not there yet and wants to prepare for something potentially in the future?
Already in, I would think, because I’m in my late 50s as well, so it’s kind of not cost effective for me to go ahead and try to get that type of insurance right now.
Actually, that’s not necessarily true depending on what assets that you have that you could possibly set aside to cover long-term care expenses. We’ve been seeing a lot of clients going towards what is called asset based care, which is a long-term care policy that’s tied together through their life insurance or an annuity, and allows you to use existing assets and really double, sometimes triple the value of that asset to provide for long-term care if you needed it. So, at that your age, that’s not necessarily a true statement what you just said. There are opportunities depending on what other assets you have to set aside for long-term care costs.
But Frank, for somebody who’s already in a nursing home or assisted living situation, there are look back provisions that go three or five years depending on what the asset is, so it’s a little bit tough to do a little bit of backwards planning as far as that goes.
Yeah, really at that point, you’re looking at Medicaid planning because that’s where it’s going to end up for that individual if they didn’t have long-term care. If they didn’t have assets set aside for long-term care, so once they eat through their assets, they’re going to end up on Medicaid, so what we do is a lot of people trying to protect those assets will qualify for Medicaid earlier, and we do have attorneys that we work with that specialize in Medicaid planning for long-term care, so if that’s something you guys are interested in or want more information on, you can contact our office and we’ll give you a referral.
And for somebody who’s looking for a place, a good question to ask is once you can no longer pay privately and you do end up in a Medicaid situation, do they keep the individual and is the level of care exactly the same? Because there are some places that will treat the residents the same when there is private pay, and then they then flipping to Medicare. I mean Medicaid. If it’s Medicaid to start off with, that’s a whole different story. I had another question <?> I spent, a couple years ago, every Friday going around unannounced without appointments looking at long-term care facilities for my father-in-law and you learn a lot. So, what Aaron was talking about is a type of program where you have either use of your dollars for cash or long-term care while you’re alive and whatever you don’t totally use can go to death benefit. So there’s always a use for the dollars. But, give our office a call and we’ll see what we might be able to do to provide some help for you.
Let me give you the phone number for the Certified Financial Group. You ready? Write this telephone number down. It’s 407-869 — wait a minute, what is it?
It’s 9800 —
It’s 407-869-9800. You were right.
Okay, I was on it. 407-869-9800. I guarantee it no one will ever forget it now.
Like you’re executing your financial plan.
Nobody will ever forget that.
It is an Ask the Expert Saturday morning on News 96.5 WDVO. Coming up right after the news, it’s the top of the hour, Florida Homes and Gardens, it’s the Great Home Fix-Up Show. Today, we’re going to have you guys from <Inaudible> and S&W Kitchens. We’ll talk about renovating your bathroom and we’ll talk about getting rid of those single pane windows that you have. Your air conditioning is just going to go right through them this summer, so maybe you could take some time and listen to this show coming up next here on 96.5 WDVO. Nancy Hecht is in the studio. Nancy is a certified financial planning professional, author of the Hecht Effect, the blog of the same name where you can find some very interesting articles. The Hecht Effect is —
Slow it down there, I can’t write that fast.
And if you want — do you have a link on your website?
Yes, we have a little tab at the top of — at thefinancialgroup.com. That’s under information to know, that’s planner blogs Or they can — there’s another task or you could look who all of us are and see our mugs from our new pictures. I think there’s a link to my blog.
There is right underneath Nancy’s picture there’s the link for her blog, LinkedIn, YouTube, or you can e-mail her directly. So all that information is on our website financialgroup.com.
That applies to all the planners also.
Also at financialgroup.com there’s a great read this week. This weeks must read is Making the Most of Social Security After the Rule Changes. There are some heavy, heavy duty rule changes right Nancy?
Yes, as of the 29th of April, which was a couple of weeks ago almost the file and suspend option went away.
So there are some differences with filing for restricted application and then a lot of other really good Social Security information on financialgroup.com.
There is still opportunities for people who turn 62 this year, so there are still some planning opportunities.
Check out our website this weeks must read and you can get some information about what those opportunities still are.
That leads me right into Nancy’s Social Security boot camp you and your colleague Denise Ovich have.
Yes our next Social Security boot camp, planning strategies, is Thursday, July 28th from 6:00 to 7:30pm. You have to make a reservation, we will serve some light refreshments, I can talk <Background Noise>. But prior to that on the 25th of June, it’s a Saturday, Gary Abley will be hosting When Can You Retire, Know Your Number. That’s from 11:00am to 1:00pm. Then there will be a Countdown to Retirement workshop on Saturday, July 23rd also from 11:00am to 1:00pm hosted by Gary. If you go to the workshop tab on our website then you can make a reservation.
We also need to talk about Gary having a Financial Basics workshop today at our office, and there is some space still available, starts at 11:00 at our office in Altamonte Springs.
How much is it?
11 Douglas Avenue
It is —
Leave your checkbook at home, it is free.
The cost is an hour and a half of time.
So if you’re interested you can show up at our office again: 11 Douglas Avenue, it starts at 11:00. I think he’s going to have light refreshments as well. It will run about an hour and a half.
Bring your kid with you or your grandkids with you. You’ll learn so much and they’ll learn so much.
Kids 15 and up.
About health care planning, budgeting, savings versus debt, even stuff like asset allocation, diversification, stocks.
Right into mutual funds.
How to retire a millionaire is what he’s going to talk about.
I wish I had that advice when I was a young lad.
There’s still time.
Nancy I always thought I was going to die young and leave a good looking corpse, that’s out of the question.
Here’s the number if you’d like to talk to Aaron Burne or Nancy Heck with the Certified Financial Group the number to call 844-220-0965, 844-220-0965. Or text us at 21232. Here’s a couple of texts. I have a 10 month old that I want to start saving for. I thought of getting him a whole life insurance plan but others have told me a 529 plan would be better I guess as we ran out of text.
Right and I totally agree. I think the 529 college savings plan is one of the best things out there. However, instead of owning it yourself as the parent, if you have a sibling that you could name as the owner, or maybe your parents that you could name as the owner. If your child ends up being one of those people that could qualify for a scholarship or grants, if the 529 is not owned by you then it doesn’t have to be reported on a financial statement when applying for a scholarship. So there are limits, I think $243,000 or some weird number like that is the maximum that the account can either grow to through growth or contributions. The nice thing about the 529 is that it will accumulate tax free, as long as withdrawals are for higher education, it comes out tax free. If your child does end up getting scholarships and grants and you don’t need to dip into it, you can name another beneficiary. If you end up eventually using it yourself, going back to school in retirement or just making withdrawals then the money has grown tax free for decades.
You could <Inaudible> limitations is $14,000 a year, you could put in five a year worth of gifts into that all at once. Or each person can put in five years worth of gifts in and <Inaudible> upside limit <Inaudible>. It is a great opportunity to get money, as well as to set up your child or grandchild or whoever it is that you want to for higher education.
Yeah I’m not a fan of life insurance on kids.
No doesn’t benefit them at all.
There’s another text up here, we’ll get to that in just a couple of minutes here. Lets talk to Michael in Orlando. Good morning Michael.
Good morning guys.
What’s your question?
Yes ma’am. My job is transferring so I have to move.
My question to you is I paid $236,000 for my house, it’s worth about 200 now. Is it better to take a loss and just get out from under it, or is it better to rent it out and then try to move on that way?
Where are you moving to Michael?
Well it would be closer to Orlando.
And the house is now where?
My house is in Deltona.
Oh okay, so that’s not too far away for you to potentially be a landlord. But you have to really look into what it means to be a landlord and managing and getting the call at 3:00 in the morning that there is a plumbing leak and can you handle it? Or do you want to rent it until the value reaches a level that you’re comfortable with before you sell it and higher a management company?
It’s a personal decision as to whether you want to take on the second job of being a landlord. It is a lot of — I’m sorry go on.
Well I was going to say I don’t think I’m scared of taking on to be a landlord. My plan was to go ahead and higher a management company. The problem is the house that we live in now is almost paid for. So that’s why it kind of hurts to sell it at a loss because there’s no reason to do that. But I just didn’t know if it was better just to cut your losses and get out of it, or if you just rent it.
Well if you are going to be landlord you have to keep meticulous records. So that’s to me the biggest downfall. I think it is more a personal decision.
Right and when you first mentioned it, it sounded like you were upside down in your mortgage but that’s not the case. You’re saying the house is almost paid for, or is paid for and you just have assets in it depreciated. But you still have an asset that you if you sold would have equity in that asset correct?
Yeah I would have equity in it, the problem is that because of the housing market I bought at the top of the market. So where I came from it was still a discount even though I paid for that. So that’s why I didn’t know since the house is almost paid for, now that I own something, that’s why I was thinking 20,000 for a loss, 40,000 for a loss it doesn’t sound too bad. Then I wouldn’t have this obligation anymore. On the other side why take something that’s almost paid for and lock in your losses but you can turn it into a profit and then just wait it out by working it out.
Again it’s getting back to a personal decision. One thing you can do if you are still wavering and can’t decide is maybe rent it on a one year term. Then you have an idea of how it works. There’s potentially another 3% or so appreciation for another year. Then you could turn around and sell it. So you are sort of straddling the fence but you are doing it in a smart manner.
Right, we’re assuming you don’t need the equity to buy your next house correct? You have equity to purchase your next home?
Yeah I do have equity to purchase. An option would have been to a little bit tap into a Roth IRA for it. But we have enough money that we can put 5% down, but we wanted to get out of paying PMI.
That is we would have to go ahead an dip into some reserves. We do have plenty of reserves it’s just I didn’t know which way to go, would be the best.
It’s going to have to be a personal decision Michael.
Okay thanks guys I appreciate it, that’s a great idea. I’ll try that.
Give it a try out.
Alright thank you Michael. Lets see we’ve got a couple of minutes before we’ve got to get to Dave Wall in the news center. You can call us at 844-220-0965. Lets talk to Steven in New Smyrna Beach. Good morning Steven.
Good morning. By the way the concert last weekend at the springs was fabulous.
So happy you enjoyed it.
You guys are great. I have a question of a strange thing. I have a <Inaudible> portfolio and I got contacted by a major broker firm, brokage firm that I keep some IRAs in, and I won’t mention, you know who it is. But they sent me a letter that the UBTI is taxable for energy sector MLP partnerships.
I was wondering I thought that the IRA were tax free until you withdrawal.
So I’m not sure and I was wondering because the energy sector gives you K-1 instead of 1099, is that what the problem is. Most disturbing thing they said that they filed with the IRS for an extension for me. So <Inaudible> June anyhow because of all the K-1 and all the updates from the regular brokerage houses. So I’m just wondering what the story is. Do I have to pay tax for my IRA, are you kidding me?
Limited partnerships in the energy sector.
So UBTI, stands for unrelated business taxable income, and this is income that’s generated by the partnership. So a lot of these energy, natural resources, type funds are set up as partnerships. Then as you know they are generating K-1. If they sell access within the partnership in order to generate income, so it’s unrelated business taxable income, that income will pass through to the IRA and will be taxable in the year in which it is received. So yes you will have to pay taxes on assets that are held within your IRA if it pays UBTI. But there are limitations. I think $1,900 is the amount that you can earn —
19 or 1,000 through entity.
I think it’s 1,900, anything earned over 1,900.
<Inaudible> talking dividends. I’m not talking about the fact that they have other things that are sold within the partnership, and I also <Inaudible> of losses, that’s the reason I went with the <Inaudible>.
It’s only in the UBTI, so the fact that it’s paying you dividends doesn’t mean that it’s UBTI, but we can get back to this on the other side of the break.
Yeah hang on we’ve got to get to the news center here with Dave Wall and then we’ll come back to your call. The number is 844-220-0965, this is On the Money brought to you by the Certified Financial Group.
It’s an Ask the Experts Saturday morning on News 965. <Inaudible>
We’ve got to go to <Background Noise>.
I don’t know Lee in Winter Park and then we’ll talk to Robert in Ocala. Lee go ahead.
Franklin Templeton tax free muni bonds, had them for about 8 or 10 years.
National or state?
Every time you turn the t.v. on you see Puerto Rico going rogue <?> <Inaudible> should I be concerned about those muni bonds now. They’ve always done decent.
Well Franklin Templeton has done a great job with many of their funds and I especially like the tax free funds. I personally am I fan of state specific. I don’t know exactly what the percentage of bonds from California, Illinois, Puerto Rico, are in the Franklin Florida Tax Free and that’s what I would want to look at. If it’s a really small percentage, if it’s not in the top 10 holdings, then I don’t know that I would worry too much about it. And they probably have not changed the dividends and you have the tax free funds for a nice dividend that you could keep it all, because it is as you mentioned tax free. So
Go onto Morningstar.com or Yahoo.com or Yahoo Finance and it will give you the top holdings.
Okay thank you voicemail.
Alright Robert in Ocala has some advice for that caller who wanted to — the one who was traveling the fence about the property.
Go ahead Robert.
Yeah I just want to let him know he does — it’s very good advice to keep the house, get a rental management company. But make sure that it is one that doesn’t charge you a renewal fee, because some of them charge you <Inaudible> renewal <Inaudible>. So some of them, like the one I had they only charge you 10% every month.
That’s cheap. <Inaudible> because <Background Noise> <Inaudible> into the house <Inaudible> because <Inaudible>.
Okay <Background Noise>.
Very good year for him to keep the house. <Inaudible>.
There you go Michael here’s some advice from a current landlord.
Thank you Robert we appreciate the time and call in there.
Here’s a text quickly. I have a 10 month old and I want to —
We already did that one.
I have a 401(k) at 6%, the company matches 6%, they now offer Roth. I don’t know if it’s worth it. I’m 38, 401(k) as 63,000 in it. Is it worth it?
Okay so Roth is of course after-tax money and a lot of companies are now offering a Roth option. So after you’ve saved pre-tax into your 401(k) with whole dollars, which is the best way to save long-term for retirement. If you still want to and have the ability to save than the Roth is an option. But if 6% is not the maximum that you can save then you should increase what you’re contributing to the traditional 401(k), it won’t make much difference in your spendable income. Then the max is gravy in my opinion.
We are <Inaudible> out of time.
Hold on I wanted to ask you about the recession. Everyone is saying this next president is going to have a recession ahead of him?
Ask us next week.
Yeah you’re in luck we’ll both be here next week. So we’ll answer this question then.
You have to know are we going to face a recession.
Perhaps, that’s my good answer. Perhaps.
Alright. So listen next week then.